Your Tax Refund Will Not Save You From Debt

Hey, you're back with Get Out of Debt Guy.

I'm Steve Rhode, and with me, as always, is Damon Day,

the new Get Out of Debt Guy.

Say hello, Damon.

How's it going, everyone?

And before I forget, you can always reach Damon Day.

Directly, talk to him on the phone.

He's not just a voice on a podcast.

You can reach him through his website,

DamonDay.com, d-a-m-o-n-d-a-y.

I don't do individual consults any more, Damon,

because one of the big reasons is,

I like having a free schedule.

As we're doing this podcast, you're sitting in your car.

I'm sitting in a hotel room.

We're like the two on the road guys this week.

Yeah, but my schedule was booked solid this week.

People reaching out on Tuesday,

and I was like, well, I think there's one appointment left

on Friday.

Might have to look at next week.

So as this podcast grows,

I might have to start regulating my schedule

a little bit better, because I'm looking at it going, it's full.

Well, I mean, I did 30 plus years of phone consults

and all that other stuff, and that is why you are

the new Get Out of Debt Guy.

I happily pass the torch, but I spend all my time

researching and writing, and we'll get to that

in just a moment, but today's show is so timely,

because it's about how your tax refund won't save you,

and the statistics on this are amazing.

We're gonna get into it, but I know what you're thinking.

My tax refund is coming, I'll use it to pay down my debt.

That'll help, but dude, for the last 30 plus years,

I've heard people say that every year,

and I get it, it feels like it's found money.

It's a big check, it's a windfall, a chance to make a dent,

but we're gonna show you some math today

that might change how you think about that refund,

because here's the truth.

For most people in your situation,

the tax refund is a bandaid on a bullet wound,

and we're gonna talk about why.

But, Damon, before I let you jump into a tirade,

I have one thing I desperately want to say to our listeners,

and that is…

Why do you always think I have a tirade?

Have we not been doing this podcast for more than 15 years?

We have, so I learned from experience,

but there's one thing I want to say,

and that is to anyone who's listening here, again,

we don't judge, there's no shade, there's no fear here.

If you have a concern, a question, a problem,

you're feeling lost, alone, afraid, confused.

You can go to thegetoutofdebt.org website,

you can chat with me online in my AI persona

that I've built with 30 years of experience,

or you can talk to a real person, you can talk to Damon.

We're here to help you.

There is absolutely no shame.

Yeah, and I don't kid about my schedule being packed

because it is, but I actually do truly enjoy doing the calls.

So I like solving problems, figuring out, okay,

you're in a tight spot, let's roll up our sleeves,

let's figure out how to fix it.

You know, it's always amazing.

It's so rewarding to have somebody come to you

that feels so desperate, so lost and alone.

And then, you know, talk to you or talk to me

and walk away with a newfound look on life.

You know, life is hopeful.

There's also, it's an opportunity I didn't see

because I was just stuck in this pit.

Yeah, and that's one of the articles

we're gonna be talking about today.

Debt as it relates to depression,

or depression as it relates to being in debt.

So we've been starting the show with a recent post

that you pick out that I have written on getoutofdebt.org.

If you're not subscribed to the free daily email,

you can go guess where, getoutofdebt.org

and subscribe, nothing to it, put your email address in,

I don't spam you, I don't send any offers,

I don't do anything, I just give you the facts, ma'am.

And just the facts, just the facts.

And the other thing is people don't know,

I do a true crime podcast.

It's amazing how many financial crimes I cover.

You can go to truecrimeunmaheard.com.

And I'm working on next week's episode,

which is about mob-related dudes

that got into the merchant cash advance business.

And how it was such a big scam

and how many people lost money on it.

But we had mentioned merchant cash advances,

I think last week.

So it's…

Yeah, we talked about it last week.

It's so timely.

We talked about how bad they were.

And then Steve's got a true crimeunherd podcast

out about mobsters in merchant cash advances.

I'm telling you, stay away from merchant cash advances.

There were actually not to reveal too much,

but people who took out MCA's merchant cash advances

from this particular group,

I think it was called par lending.

Anyway, they actually used mob enforcement

to get people to pay up,

like frightening families and kids and stuff.

This is a, you know, it's a dangerous world out there.

Well, I think I made it clear,

well, at least mentioned it last week

that trying to resolve merchant cash advances

and negotiate merchant cash advances,

is very different than negotiating with, say, Chase Bank.

Yeah.

It's very different animal.

It sure is.

Well, it's because…

Did I mention don't get merchant cash advances?

I mentioned that.

Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's a…

Yeah, yeah, don't do that.

It's the payday loan of having a small business.

Yeah, it's the beginning of your potential bankruptcy.

Yeah, is what it is.

Here's a free taste for you on the corner, right?

Yeah.

You're a little dose of heroin.

It's the beginning of getting your corporation deserved.

What it usually is.

All right, so, what do you want to jump into first?

Well, since we were talking about it,

how about there's an article on the site?

Actually, it caught my eye because it's very true

and you and I both see it every day,

but the title of the article is debt equals depression.

The research that explains why debt advice fails.

Yeah, so I think it's a very interesting…

It's a very interesting read.

So back in the day when I was running

the large nonprofit credit counseling group,

we had CPAs and staff attorneys

and we also had a staff psychologist

that helped purely with behavioral spending,

the unconscious spending issues.

But one of the things that Dr. James did was

we did a survey of 1,000 people.

I believe that we're experiencing

some sort of financial problem

and the results were pretty eye-opening.

Do you have that article in front of you, Damon?

I don't.

I do, and I'm curious.

Was this back in the day

where you actually had to have a phone bank

and called people for some reason?

I know, we used a…

We had 20,000 clients.

That's why I said it was 20,000.

And we surveyed all of the people

who had reached out to us with financial problems.

So it was only about debt.

And I think what is…

Most I'm trying to remember the exact numbers

up top of my head.

That's why I asked to be…

I got the article.

Okay, so I think it was 49%.

Showed, dude, you're so wrong.

What?

49 points.

Here's way off.

That's 25 years worth of memory down the drain.

So if 49.3% of people showed signs of depression,

which is way outside the normal percentage

of the general population.

But why that number is really important is,

because those people that are experiencing depression

have similar characteristics.

The inability to follow through, make a plan, take action,

which just leaves you in this constant debt spiral

where you're feeling so hopeless.

And yet there are options and solutions

and opportunities.

They're right there at the tip of your fingers.

But you either can't see them

or you can't follow through

and I understand completely why.

Now, if I remember the survey correctly again,

the, it was females over males

had the most amount of depression,

but it wasn't that far off.

Wasn't…

Yeah, it said single women were the most at risk.

And then, you do cover the paralysis problem

in there, which is basically why it's so hard for people

that are in debt to, and we talked about this last week,

to DIY their way out of it.

Because a lot of them are showing symptoms of depression

and it makes it hard to do stuff.

You know, it's only here to press.

Yeah, and it's funny because over the decades,

that people who would be surprised

when they would talk to me.

And I would suggest, you know what,

we're gonna take a deep breath on the debt.

Because the first thing I want you to do,

is either get aligned with a therapist

or talk to your medical professional

because we need to get this depression under control.

And then there will be much brighter

and roseier days and skies ahead.

Because you have already told me

you've tried X, Y, Z, you know, and it never worked.

So what's not repeat the same thing?

Yeah, and you've got a pop out right in the article

says why grind it out, and I'm doing air quotes,

why grind it out, advice fails.

And it says telling a depressed person

to maintain motivation for five years of debt repayment

ignores the clinical reality.

Depression impairs executive function,

planning, and follow through.

The exact skills required to execute a debt pay off plan.

That's why we struggle.

Yeah, that's why, you know, we talk about why budget suck

and they're just a page of lies,

but also why they fail for many.

Because you might be a well organized person

in the other parts of your life,

but when it comes to your personal finances,

and you're dealing with the fear and the shame

and the stress and everything else with your debt,

and it's leading to depression,

whether you want to admit it or not,

that is going to cause you to fail

no matter how hard you try.

And when you do fail, guess what?

It amplifies the debt problem,

and you feel like what's the use?

Yeah.

Yeah.

So good article.

Thank you.

We'll read that one.

All right, that's on getoutofdebt.org.

Yeah.

Next one.

So this one, I wanted to bring up

because we really don't talk about this option that much.

Although it is a valid option in some situations,

but it has become an increasingly less valuable strategy.

I'm not in my opinion, you know,

there's just one semi old guy's opinion, right?

Well, actually, the article is…

It follows up what we just said.

You know, it's an extended payment plan.

Yeah, so this article is credit counseling.

We don't talk about it that much.

I do talk about it with my clients

when they're in situations where it's worth taking a look,

but the article is credit counseling,

the complete guide to debt management plans.

And the reason I thought it was a good article

to bring up today is, again, A,

we don't talk about it that much,

but when people are in debt and they're looking for strategies

and looking for solutions,

they will very likely come across debt management programs.

And there's a lot of confusion around the differences

between mainly debt settlement programs

I'm doing air quotes and credit counseling programs.

So usually debt settlement guys will essentially try

to sell debt settlement as just a cheaper, faster form

of credit counseling, and that's not what it is, right?

So it's important to understand the distinction

because a lot of people will call and say,

oh, I'm talking to a debt consolidation company,

and I always have to follow up with,

well, exactly who are you talking to and what are they saying

and sometimes based on the explanation

I'll know they're talking to a debt settlement company

and then sometimes based on the explanation,

I know they're talking to a credit counseling company

which are very different strategies,

but people tend to confuse them

and they just kind of lump them both,

oh, it's a debt consolidation company.

Yeah, because it's like, no, they're very different things.

So this is a good article.

When they're making one payment,

they don't see the back end

where it's getting chopped up and sent multiple places.

It really is not what people think of a debt consolidation.

Now, the big issue with credit counseling

is a kind of ties into another analysis

that I just finished.

I went and looked at, because credit counseling groups

are nonprofit, their tax returns are public information.

So I went and looked at five years of data

on credit counseling firms

and 50% of them are running negative revenue, right?

They're running deficits.

And so part of the concern is

is my credit counseling group going to be around,

but again, I get out of debt.

Well, they're getting squeezed on both ends.

Yeah, creditors, the problem is

that credit counseling groups essentially act

as nonprofit debt collectors for creditors

because that's where they get their funding from,

from the creditors.

And I don't care who says it.

I ran a credit counseling group.

I've seen the inside.

Creditors apply pressure on performance to collect.

And so the question becomes,

is a non, look, let's clarify,

I'm gonna tell the inside scoop

on this whole nonprofit thing.

Non-profit doesn't mean that they…

Grab your coffee, it doesn't mean

that they're operating at a break-even point.

Non-profit is their tax status,

not the way they should run their operation.

And some of them are making millions

and millions every year in revenue.

But the issue is, who are they truly representing

because they're dependent on creditors

for their funding, and yet they're enrolling people

in five-year programs,

and you look at the success rate of the programs,

it's abysmal.

So it's kind of like a chapter 13 where most of them fail.

And most people don't succeed in a debt management plan.

And one of the reasons is because they generally take

about five years.

And we just talked about how debt and depression

go hand in hand.

And people will fall and fail.

Yeah, and my stance on credit counseling

is the same as it is on pretty much any option,

which is, it's a good option if it's a good option.

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Right?

The key is, is it a good option for you?

And that's the part that everybody in glass is old, right?

Yeah.

You call in, you know, you wanna get some advice.

What do I do?

I'm talking to a credit counselor.

I have my air quotes going again.

And everybody's gonna be a good candidate for the most part.

Now, if your cash flow is so atrociously bad,

then they will say, yeah, this is not gonna work.

But then they'll also say, can we change some of your bills

and make this fake budget that you're giving me work?

And then we can accept you.

So, you know, it's not to say that credit counseling

is not a good strategy because what it will do

is it will lower your interest rate.

So, if you're in a situation where you have plenty of cash flow,

you can fairly easily afford to pay your debt back.

But you just want to get the interest rates lower.

So, the money that you're paying towards the debt

can pay it off faster.

And you're not in a situation where a consolidation loan

or, you know, a home equity loan or something like that

would allow you to do the same thing

in lower the interest rate.

So, I'm not saying home equity loan is the next thing

you go look at or anything.

But the point is, you want to look at all the strategies

and all the options.

But when you go to a credit counselor, your cards will be closed.

They will, I say negotiate, but it's already-

That's predefined.

It's pretty arranged.

Yeah, deals with the creditors

where you might have a 28% credit card

that will now drop to 9.9 or now drop

to 5.9 or something like that.

So, they do help.

They do good.

But what I find a lot of times Steve mentioned

like a chapter 13 with a high dropout rate

is because they will enroll people

that are already choked off on their cash flow

and just getting a lower interest rate

is not going to actually work and solve the problem.

But they'll enroll you anyway

until you eventually realize you can't afford the payment

and you'll drop out.

And my big concern is, let's say you're 40 years old

and you're going to make five years worth of payments

and you're not saving anything for retirement.

That management plan did not just cost you five years

of monthly payments.

It cost you $400,000 in lost retirement savings

that you could have made if you had chosen a different strategy.

Again, I want to amplify what Damon said.

I am not against any particular program.

There's no program, well, maybe there's one variation.

The magic beanstalk letter is not my favorite.

But, you know, every program has the right person.

The key is finding the right combination

for you and your situation and what program works best.

And that is what Damon is an absolute, you know,

Zen master at is working out that relationship

between your situation and what you want to accomplish

and what actual strategies make a meaningful difference.

I'm kind of just smiling at the listeners

that are not long time listeners

where you just kind of threw out the magic beanstalk letter

strategy and they're going, what's the magic beanstalk letter

that was actually more for you.

But, but there are people listening, Steve.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. So anyway, it's a good article.

You know, again, we're not against credit council.

We're just against having a one size fits all, you know, approach

and the, you know, what you hear

when you call the credit counseling program

is not always going to be what you need to hear.

And it's important that you find the right strategy

that's going to work best for your overall situation,

identify what your goals are and then identify the strategy

that would help you accomplish those goals.

And there's almost never just one strategy.

Almost sometimes it's like, yeah, you got one option for it.

Sometimes it's like that.

But, but most of the time there's various things

that we can look at and then it's just really up to you

as the consumer to decide what kind of sacrifices

you are wanting to make because these different strategies

will all have, all these strategies will have sacrifices

but they will be different types of sacrifices.

So that's what's important for you to decide

what sacrifices are right for you and your family.

For some people, it's the Dave Ramsey approach

and they're fine with the beans and rice

and sacrificing years of their life

and not doing anything because that's a priority of theirs.

And then there's other families that are the exact opposite

that they don't want to live like that for five years.

Maybe their kids are young kids or teenagers

and they don't feel want to feel like they're depriving

their kids of their childhood for those five years

while they dig out of debt.

So there's other options they want to look at

where they're more willing to sacrifice a credit score

or something like that.

So they don't have to sacrifice the lifestyle as much.

There's no right or wrong.

It's just what's best for you.

So the American Bankers Association

and like four or five other banking groups

just sent a letter to different congressional committees

wanting them to crack down even harder on debt settlement

which I thought was interesting because

if we crack down more on debt settlement

which you know, the marketing has become a problem.

But one of the interesting statistics in that letter was

25% of people enrolled in debt settlement plans

never settle a single debt.

Does that surprise you?

Well, the bankers want to crack down on it

because that's not surprising at all

because the same problem the credit counselors have

which is debt settlement people will enroll

everybody that calls in.

Oh, why wouldn't you want to enroll?

It's gonna be a lower payment

and there's my famous air quotes going up again.

There is no such thing as a payment in debt settlement.

There's no payments.

They'll sell you payment plans

but there's no real payment.

So but of course the bankers want them to crack down

because the first thing they tell you to do is what?

Yes, stop paying.

Stop paying your bills?

Yeah, exactly.

So the bankers don't care about the, you know,

settlement company settling the debt or not

because if the settlement company doesn't settle the debt

the bankers can still go after you.

Right.

You know, filing lawsuits and things like that

but what they get pissed at is those cease communication letters

and when you hire that settlement company

send that cease communication letter

and then the banks know, okay,

there's a payment we're not going to be getting anymore.

Yeah, one of the things that that again

makes it harder for them to can,

that makes it harder for the banks to convince you to keep paying them

even though you don't have any more money.

If you go to getoutofdebt.org

I covered that letter the bankers sent.

Just look for banks and debt settlement

in the search bar, you'll find it.

But one of the interesting things that they said in that letter

was debt settlement company marketing strategy

is now not focused on people who are just having financial problems.

But now trying to suck in people who are able to pay their bills

without an issue at all.

And that's what's driving them crazy.

Oh yeah, you got Mario Lopez out there pedaling it.

He's all over my Facebook all of a sudden

acting like he's some kind of finance guru.

We got Mario Lopez talking, hey, so and so.

Where's you on Oprah trying to show people how to get out

of credit card debt like shut up, Mario.

I know.

It's like this new credit washing.

And there's another term for it too

that's going around on the talks,

the tech talks and the Instagrams and everything else.

All of a sudden people are bragging about

some sort of newfangled ways of repair,

restore your credit.

Credit washing, clean slate, credit repair,

clean slate program.

And it's amazing how all of these things, none of them are new.

Right? They just come back around like every couple of years.

Was that headed up by Frank Abigna?

Catch me if you can suck us.

That would be good if it wasn't.

Credit washing, it's just reminds me of check

in the in the nail polish, you know, washing it.

The tech said you a picture when I walked into the hotel

of they're having a tax lien seminar.

Oh yeah, that's a great way to well, you know.

The guy's just so kind, you know,

there's all this tax lien money out there

and he's just too much for him to deal with.

So he's going to make his money by selling you the information.

Right, not.

And not do it instead of just quietly getting rich.

Yeah, he's got to sell the seminar.

Do, you know, doing his own strategy.

Yeah, I'm like, come, he's making more money

selling you the information than he is

buying the tax liens and buying real estate with tax liens.

Remember John Beck, remember that guy?

I remember the name.

I don't remember his pitch.

Yeah, he as an infomercial for, you know, the tax,

this tax lien strategy has been around the infomercials

since like before Carlton Sheets.

Oh my God, that's way back.

Yeah, everybody said everybody's still pitching, you know,

all these, like, how are there still all these tax liens

available if all these people are selling all these courses?

Either people are not doing it, right?

You know, I don't, I don't get it,

but I've been seeing that pitch for 30 years

about how you can get rich.

And I'm not saying you can't make money.

I'm sure you can.

But why are these guys spending so much time

and investing into these courses

when they could just be millionaires

and you know, following their own strategies?

It doesn't make a lot of sense.

But 40 years ago, I fell for it.

I purchased a pre-floor.

Oh, so did I.

How do you think I learned all this stuff?

I purchased a pre-floor.

I still have all the courses as my wall of shame.

Like, yeah, bought that one.

That didn't work.

I purchased a pre-floor closure real estate.

And weren't you going to throw out these, yeah,

I still have the 1988 Carlton Sheets cassette tapes.

That, and you might go 1988.

weren't you 11?

Yes, my mom bought that program

and then gave it to me when I was a teenager

because I was into that stuff.

I was a weird teenager.

But the tapes are like kind of yellowing.

I still have them.

You might ask me why in the hell

I still have tapes from Carlton Sheets

no money down real estate.

I know why.

And that's just because I like to keep it

on my wall of shame.

Like, here's all the crap that I tried

so you don't have to.

Well, the best thing from that seminar,

is I had to go to Philadelphia for the seminar.

The best thing was on the first day at the lunch break,

the sky and the class and I walked out

to go get something to eat.

We're standing on the street corner

and he goes, hey, that's my car.

Is it a drive spot?

You know, it's a car stolen.

I'm very memorable moment.

Yeah, I got Don the Pre.

I got, what was that?

You remember the guy placing tiny ads

from my little apartment, remember?

Yeah, he, that's not around anymore.

No, he's not because the ad,

newspaper stopped publishing his ads, I guess.

And he stopped making money.

He went to jail.

But I got the…

He died in jail.

Yeah, but I thought he killed himself, right?

Because he was in debt and those depressed,

according to your article.

Yes.

See it, and all it goes around.

So, yeah, and I got Dean Grazioly,

that guy's still going strong.

I'm not sure how, but he's partnered up

with Tony Robbins now,

peddling whatever they're peddling these days.

But Dean Grazioly, say what you want about him,

that guy's a survivor, man.

He's been going strong on the infos for 20 years plus now.

Because I remember watching him,

I think, when I was in college.

Well, let's get back to tax refunds.

So, tax refunds.

Tax refunds.

Yes. Okay.

The third article is right about today's topic.

So, the title is 36% of Americans plan to use their

$4,000 tax refund to pay off debt.

And it's not surprising, it happens every year.

Yeah, and it's a timely article.

We're going to be talking about it here in a second too,

but go read that one because most of you guys

getting a tax refund are probably thinking the same thing.

I'm going to apply it to my debt.

We're not saying don't apply it to your debt.

We're saying have a strategy first

before you just throw your $4,000, $5,000, $6,000 refund

at one of your credit cards,

just so it'll be charged back up in the next two or three months.

And then you'll be thinking, okay, in nine months,

when I get my next tax refund, we're going to hit this.

And the other thing too, a little side note, a little PSA.

If your refund is significant, you're giving the IRS

too much money every years.

Adjust your W9, change that up so you have more money

coming back.

Doesn't it W4?

W4?

I don't know, it's been 20 years since I had either one.

It's a W4.

Yeah, so you put more money in your pocket every month instead

of giving you to the government for free

to send you back at the end of the year.

But if you are going to do that,

let's have a plan for the money first.

Because if you just do that all of a sudden,

it's going to be hot cashing your hands

and it'll assimilate into your lifestyle.

And then you'll have no refund and no money,

which is why a lot of people just max that out

because they like that big refund check.

Because honestly, a lot of people

they've told me they just don't trust themselves

with the money every month.

And that's a horrible way to do that.

Well, okay, so based on our listeners,

the average amount of debt that people have

is somewhere between 30 to 200,000 dollars,

just like in credit card debt.

It's all over the world.

Yeah, most people that call me are 70, 80, over 100K.

It's a lot of debt these days.

I mean, their credit card debt is at an all time high

for a reason.

People have a lot of debt.

Well, I mean, so let's do the math.

You get a $5,000 refund,

and you're carrying 80,000 and credit card debt.

Okay, you're paying off 6% of your debt.

Problem solved.

Problem solved.

But my work here is,

but you're carrying 75 grand at 22 to 29% interest.

You're bailing water with a teaspoon at that point.

That is not a solution.

Yeah.

And of course, the big thing is that people do that.

They pay down five grand of debt.

They feel good for a week.

And then, you know, you need a new set of tires or something.

And you start building the debt back up again.

So I, if you're gonna get a big refund check like that,

this is a time to take a deep breath.

And I now have 16 free tools

that you can use on to get out of debt.org website.

And you can look at how to apply it and all that other stuff.

But I want you to think about the number one thing

that you need first before even worrying

about paying down the debt is you need

a financial cushion, a safety net, a savings account.

You need money to fall back on.

So when the next set of tires is needed,

you don't have to put it on credit.

You could pay cash for it.

Now, if you're saying, well, if I do that,

I'm still in the same amount of debt.

That's a different problem.

We have two problems here.

One is making it through life

and the other is dealing with the debt.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And again, it goes back to you're gonna notice a theme.

If you have a refund check coming

and you're planning on using it to deal with your debt,

come up with the plan first.

You know, that plan maybe instead of just throwing it dollar

for dollar at the debt,

maybe a settlement strategy makes a lot of sense.

Maybe we can use that 5,000 to jumpstart your savings account

for the settlements.

Or maybe you're in a situation where a chapter seven bankruptcy

just makes a lot of sense.

Even if you don't really want to do it,

it might make a lot of sense

and save you a hell of a lot of money.

In that case, that $4,000 tax refund could be set aside

and used to hire the bankruptcy attorney.

I had a person reach out to me

middle of last month for help with their debt.

I responded, I sent him a link to schedule a call

for whatever reason they never scheduled a call.

I got an email response to that just yesterday.

So it was like two, three weeks later.

And that's fine, whatever.

And the question that he had was

how much does it cost to file bankruptcy?

Well, I mean, that's something I could discuss

during the call, but he,

well, whatever reason chose not to call me,

that's fine.

I mean, I'm a chargeman for the call.

So I appreciate he's just wanting a simple question.

I'm happy to answer it.

So I responded and I said,

well, it depends on what area in the country

are you at?

A big city, small city.

You know, attorneys charge different things

and it was like, it's going to be probably anywhere

from 1,500 to 3,000 for a simple chapter seven.

You know, depending on where you're at.

And so he responded with,

well, I'm in around Portland, Oregon

or something like that, right?

He gave me the city.

Like, I don't know if he expected me

to start calling me comes here,

30s for him and start doing surveys.

Like, okay, well,

call some attorneys in Portland, Oregon then.

If you're curious, what they charge?

I mean, I'm not going to force him to call me for a case,

but it's just kind of weird.

But anyway, if you're listening,

call some attorneys in Portland, Oregon,

and they'll tell you how much the cost.

I don't know.

I'm not an attorney in Portland, Oregon.

Yeah, I mean, just call around on the site.

But that could be a good use for your tax refund,

because I get that a lot too.

Who in the hell am I supposed to afford

to file bankruptcy and pay the attorney if I'm broke?

I have strategies for that,

but you have to call me to learn them.

Well, that's why if you're going to use the refund

for something, it's more powerful as part of a strategy

than it is as a one-time payment, right?

Same money, different approach,

dramatically better outcomes.

Yeah, I'm in Portland, Oregon.

Okay, it's good to know.

Thanks for that information.

When I worked at IBM a long time ago,

a coworker had a sign on her cubicle that said,

failure to plan on your part

does not constitute an emergency on mine,

which I love that sign,

but the other one was all work is hard as you,

but not harder.

Yeah.

I've heard both of those from you over the years,

but that first one, you told me like,

I don't know, 18, 20 years ago,

and I'm like, I like that.

Yeah.

I got applies.

Yeah, because I do get that sometimes,

like a people will call me and it's like,

I need your help, I'm getting sued.

And it's like, okay, well, I can help you,

and here's my client agreement and then they're like,

they want me to like deal with it yesterday

and it's like, well, hold on now.

I've got a lot of existing clients

and I've got stuff that I need to get done for them.

Your situation, I know it feels like a 911 to you,

but you don't even have to respond

to that complaint for 30 days.

So relax.

I'll get to it, but I always think of your quote,

you know, failure to plan on your part

does not constitute an emergency on my part.

I'm not the one that waited until I got sued

to reach out for help.

My favorite was a client to call me once four o'clock

on like a Wednesday.

And my house is going to be four closed on, when?

Do you have a notice?

Tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock.

Yeah, what can you do?

Better file an emergency bankruptcy today, dude.

Yeah, and just a quick PSA, most of the time,

this stuff is not going to constitute an emergency.

Sometimes it will, you know, but, you know,

getting served a lawsuit is not a,

oh my gosh, my hair's on fire.

This has got to be dealt with.

To mom's like, right?

I mean, there's, yeah, it feels like it for sure.

So, you know, and that's one of the big things

that I help clients with is kind of helping them

just kind of relax and walking them off the ledge

a little bit and help them de-stress and say, okay,

look, you got sued.

That's fine.

You don't have to go to court.

We can fix this before you even have to go to court.

And just knowing that information allows them to go,

okay, so a little stressed, but now I feel a little better.

Like, oh, I got this hearing next week.

What do I do?

I don't worry.

I'll call the attorney, I'll work something out.

Well, you know, that's the whole suppression thing, right?

That people ignore it until something happens,

whether it's a letter or a phone call or you got sued

or something like that, serve.

And then all of a sudden it becomes an urgent, urgent problem.

We can deal with all of this stuff.

Lossy, it's only scary if you continue to ignore it.

Right.

Then it can become problematic.

That's when the scary stuff happens.

When one day, six months after you got sued

and ignored it and got a default judgment

and never did anything.

And then your employer says, I hate to have to tell you this,

but I got this notice and I have to withhold

25% of your paycheck moving forward.

And I get those calls too.

It's like, like, well, I'm really good,

but, and I have been able to stop garnishment,

but I got a really poor on the charm of the creditor

at that point.

I mean, I got to go cap in hand.

I mean, I got to be calling in favors from years ago

and be like, you know, just really, really appealing

to that collector's good nature.

Because why on earth would they remove a wage garnishment

that's already in place if they don't have to?

Right.

So, I agree with you.

I've been able to do it.

I've been able to do it.

I honestly, I can't even think of a case I couldn't get it done,

but, but I, I got to charm their asses.

Oh, that's a definitely, don't put me in that position.

That's a fresh cup of coffee and a bowl of weedies morning.

Yeah, that's a, all right.

Here we go.

Got nothing to lose.

Let's go for it.

So right now, people are thinking about my tax refund

is coming and it might be coming in a month or two.

But all you're doing is delaying the problem

and you're spending, you know,

three grand in interest over that period

that you're just pissing the money away

if you don't have a strategy

about how you're gonna deal with your debt going forward.

Delay is costly.

It's not just pushing it off till tomorrow.

It's costing you real money.

So, don't wait.

If you think the refund is going to save you,

please, let's think about a bigger plan.

So you don't have to relive this again next year.

Yes, I concur.

All right, well, doctor.

Doctor?

Doctor? Well, I can.

Frank, Frank Avenue.

That doctor.

Catch me if you can, I wish.

Doctor, do you concur?

I'll, I keep thinking about a bad barbie

every time you say that.

Who's bad barbie?

Well, let's see the one that says, you know,

catch me outside.

Oh, that's something like that, bad baby.

Yeah, yeah, maybe it's bad baby.

It's something like that.

I don't know, doctor, filmmaker, feminist.

Catch me outside.

How about that?

People are weird, man.

And then people are like follower and throw money at her.

And I, I don't know.

I don't get it, but it's different generation, Steve.

I know.

Not like when we were kids.

Nope.

Catch me outside.

How about that?

Well, you know, last time we talked about

why paying more than the minimum does work

at high debt levels.

And the tax refund is just a bigger minimum, amen.

Same problem.

Same math.

So your income is your biggest asset.

We've talked about that.

And the refund is just one piece of that income

if you use it strategically with a plan.

Not emotionally.

There can be some really good things ahead for you.

Now, next week, we're gonna talk about

what to actually do with a tax refund

when you're in debt.

And we told you what not to do,

but we're gonna show you the smart plays.

So be sure wherever you're listening, subscribe,

follow along, click that thing, give us a review,

do something like that.

Because specific strategies for making

that $3 to $5,000 work harder are available

more than you ever thought possible.

Yeah, and now March and April

are when most people make emotional financial decisions

based on a windfall that isn't as big as it feels.

Stay subscribed for the rational perspective.

Your future self will thank you.

Here's a quick exercise.

Take your expected refund amount

and divide it by your total debt.

That's the percentage of the problem it solves

as a direct payment.

Now, consider this.

Is that strategy worth waiting for?

And we're not trying to rain on your refund parade.

We're trying to make sure you use it as wisely

as possible and get the most out of it.

The refund is real money.

It's your money.

So let's make account for something.

Until next week, Damon, I will see ya.

Catch me outside.

How about that?

Peace.

Ha, ha, ha.