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Home > Ask The Get Out of Debt Experts > My Wife and I Are Thinking of Using No More Mortgage Program by Larry Ruff. – Thomas

My Wife and I Are Thinking of Using No More Mortgage Program by Larry Ruff. – Thomas

“Dear Steve,

My wife and I have been in credit counseling for awhile and seem to be making little progress. Recentlywe have been checking out NO MORE MORTAGE AND AFTER JUST TALKING TO THEM WE HAVE SECURED DEBT OF 175,000 AND UNSECURED DEBT OF 70,000,AND DESPERATELY NEED HELP AND ADVICE ON OUR NEXT MOVE.




Dear Thomas,

I assume the company you are talking about, No More Mortgage is the company located online here.

First, I’ve got to tell you how irritating it is to me when companies proclaim there is some secret or magic way to break out of debt.

There is not one thing new about this approach. It is a basic debt elimination strategy that I first started using in 1994. How much did they want to charge you for this program?

Here is an example of the solution they are claiming to provide.

Here is one of their radio ads.

Maybe I’m just in a bad mood right now but if you are paying $1 for this service you are really getting screwed. This is nothing more than a a program to pay your debts off early using a modified debt snowball process. You either elect to make payments bi-weekly or add an additional amount on top of what you are already paying each month. This No More Mortgage program does not reduce your minimum monthly payments expected by the creditors.

But I bet they are going to charge you a pretty penny for this service to help pay for all the radio and television ads they have available.

So you want to know the secret behind this? I’ll tell you. The way you reduce the amount of time it takes to get out of debt and the massive amount of debt is simply by paying your debt back early. By adding extra money to your monthly debts payments and paying off your debts from highest interest rates to lowest you will easily accomplish this. The trick behind the bi-weekly approach is that you wind up making one extra monthly payment to all your debts each year than paying them monthly. In a given year there are 12 months but 13 bi-weekly periods.

What sinks these plans is not the administration of them, but the adding of debt to the current accounts or taking out new credit.

If you want to do this plan yourself you can follow the debt snowball approach ad setup the payments using your online banking recurring option. When the first debt is paid off, reset the online bank payment instructions and so on.

This program has two additional basic problems. If they are going to debit your account and take the money out of it and then pay it to your creditors according to the plan calculated they run afoul of many different state laws as a consolidator. Depending on how long they are holding your money you are letting them use it for free. If what they do instead is prints drafts on your behalf and send them to your creditors you then create a situation where you might easily bounce checks since you have limited control over them or may forget the timing of the checks.

Bottom line: It’s easy, the service appears problematic, you can easily do this yourself and save a ton.

Oh yes, if you bail from the credit counseling program you could lose your special interest rates and/or not be let back into the program again if you have already enrolled in a debt management program twice in five years.

You might just want to consider staying in the debt management program but adding a couple of hundred dollars to your minimum payment you are sending and it will reduce your debt faster.

Please update me on your progress by posting updates here in the comments section of your question. I’m very interested in how this works out for you.

P.S. Be sure to read ‘The Secret of Surviving Through Difficult Economic Times. What I Learned On My Journey‘.

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About Steve Rhode

Steve Rhode
Steve Rhode is the Get Out of Debt Guy and has been helping good people with bad debt problems since 1994. You can learn more about Steve, here.
  • Cantweallgetalong

    I personally think spending more than 10,000 on a car is over paying. As long as it will get you from point A to point B that’s what matters. If you have to buy it for status symbol there is something wrong with you, not the car. I personally wouldn’t have anyone wash my car for me even if it’s only $20 because I can do this myself. However some people choose to do this twice a month. So $40 for someone to wash your car in a month or $40 to have someone administer your debts, I would choose the $40 to have someone administer my debts.

    So my question is why is everyone having an issue with having someone else help you get out of debt? There are many people out there that want to get out of debt but don’t have the time to manage it or the discipline to do so. I think that this could be a good service for some people. I will agree that 10,000 might be a little high for a service like this but to say $1 is too much, is a bias opinion. I would have to say anyone that gets paid to ruin someone’s credit and negotiate their debt is paid too much.

    For the people reading this thread remember everyone is selling something but the devil is in the details.

  • SteveP1590

    Run away from these guys as quickly as you can. The fees are outrageous. They do nothing to solve the problem of why people are geeting into debt in the first place. Without that you will likely not make progress and add another $10k to your debt.


    • Cantweallgetalong

      I personally think spending more than 10,000 on a car is over paying. As long as it will get you from point A to point B that’s what matters. If you have to buy it for status symbol there is something wrong with you, not the car. I personally wouldn’t have anyone wash my car for me even if it’s only $20 because I can do this myself. However some people choose to do this twice a month. So $40 for someone to wash your car in a month or $40 to have someone administer your debts, I would choose the $40 to have someone administer my debts.

      So my question is why is everyone having an issue with having someone else help you get out of debt? There are many people out there that want to get out of debt but don’t have the time to manage it or the discipline to do so. I think that this could be a good service for some people. I will agree that 10,000 might be a little high for a service like this but to say $1 is too much, is a bias opinion. I would have to say anyone that gets paid to ruin someone’s credit and negotiate their debt is paid too much.

      For the people reading this thread remember everyone is selling something but the devil is in the details.

  • Kyle

    WOW! Thank you so much for having this conversation Steve. I was in the process of talking to NMM. After seeing all the red flags on the internet I think I’ll stick to my original plan. Obviously if something is too good to be true it really is. Are there any books or websites that you recommend for creating a solid debt free plan?

  • Joel

    Steve, I’ve been speaking with NMM about their service. They quoted me an upfront cost of $10,000 and REQUIRED a yes or no decision at the end of their presentation which I decided not to accept.

    • Steve Rhode


      Wow, that sends up all sorts of red flags for me. Why the pressure? It seems so unnecessary.

      Thanks for the comment.


      • Carl Starrett

        So you finally got a straight answer from somebody on the cost of the program. $10,000 is outrageous. That’s enough money to the cover the costs of a Chapter 7 bankruptcy by a factor of about 3 or 4 times.
        .-= Carl Starrett´s last blog ..Should Christians File for Bankruptcy? =-.

  • Kirk K

    Hi again.

    I did state above Carl’s post that DFPS, which I have no ownership in unfortunately, does charge a monthly fee as the payment administrator.

    I’ve worked with several parties that sold the program at different pricing points and can not speak for another company on their pricing. I contract outside of, and don’t have any ownership in any of them. That’s why I suggested you contact a company directly, in the very first post, if you want more information. Just as you can’t speak on behalf of another writer’s website, I can’t speak for another company on something that could have changed or may change at any time.

    This has gone off track and away from what I wanted to convey in the first post. You stated that if someone was paying $1 for a service that they were getting taken advantage of, to put it in a nicer way. I wanted to clarify how the program worked and suggest that other solutions do work for people. Some people just will not be successful on their own and will miss out on not only the savings they could gain but on the ability to refocus their money towards their retirement where they may need it. It is a viable option for those people that need it who would otherwise waste many times over whatever fee a company is going to charge them in both wasted payments toward interest and insufficient contributions to their retirement.

    If the pricing you show above is correct, and a client is saving $100K in interest and will be debt free in even half the time it will normally take, is the fee worth it? Not considering that their client could take the money that was going towards debt and contribute part or all of it to their retirement significantly boosting their retirement income later, is a program fee like you stated worth it? If I could pay 10K to save 100K I’d be gaining 90K along with other benefits so is that worth while? I’d say it is for a lot of people that aren’t getting ahead of their debt today. Focusing on fees and not the gains is somewhat one sided. The program is like an investment except that in this case you can fairly accurately predict the gain after subtracting the cost, unlike trying to guess where the stock market will go.

    There are options out there for people that really aren’t making any headway today and need a solution that will save them money without hurting their credit and do the work for them. For many people just telling them what to do isn’t enough. My short stint in mortgage showed me how many people are treading water or sinking and need help that they can count on. We just seem to be on different sides of a problem with different solutions.

    Thank you for the lively exchange. You need to be critical and question thoroughly to continue to give your readers the best information you can. You do a much better job than the sites I’ve been researching recently which is why I stuck around.

    • Steve Rhode


      So you do know of prices charged by others for this very same program. You said “I’ve worked with several parties that sold the program at different pricing points…” So what pricing points and terms have you seen the program sold at?

      Is paying $10,000 worth saving $100,000 you ask. I’d go with no in your case. I suspect the program funds are asked to be paid upfront and are not escrowed and taken latter when earned, so there is no expectation the company will be around for years into the future to deliver the program and that unpaid fees would be returned in case of default. An upfront fee would be a suckers play for service yet to be delivered.

      You say so much but never say anything. I’m just looking for specific answers to my specific questions. If anything you’ve done this company a terrible disservice and made them look like a horrible scam with questionable pricing that apparently everyone should stay away from.


  • Kirk K

    Steve, I don’t have any ownership in DFPS, FI, or NMM. I wish I did. They’re helping a lot of people to get out of debt and save money they would otherwise throw away by failing to eliminate their debt on their own. FI and DFPS are associated. NMM is an outside company owned by someone else who has been selling the program for years.

    I have heard of the contract programmer that was working for NMM and had done a little research on that previously. He has apparently attacked 3 or more companies with some pretty scandalous lies online. I assume his “demands” weren’t met and he retaliated with outright false information. Unfortunately it’s almost impossible to eradicate false information from some sites that want to charge a great deal of money to make the “corrections”. That’s the internet.

    When I did the research I looked for and found a few complaints. I also know they have worked with thousands and maintain an A+ rating with the better business bureau, which is difficult to do.

    My understanding is that the toolkit above that used to be sold is now given to clients in the program along with financial counseling.

    I’ve seen a lot of sites that promote the “do it yourself” model which is great. Unfortunately they are usually very critical or even hostile towards companies that provide the solution for a fee to consumers that are unable to achieve it on their own. Different people need different solutions and there is a need for support of both methodologies.

    I support both do it yourself for those can make it work and fee based programs for those that have the need for it. I can appreciate the post from Carl above and I would respectfully suggest that many of the people that read it are not going to follow the advice and get it done or try it and give up in the first year. If it was that easy then when do it yourself kits were made available over 10 years ago our nation’s consumers would all be close to being out of debt now. Since debt is still so rampant there is apparently a need for other solutions.

    • Steve Rhode


      So you are unwilling to ask the people you know there how much their fees are and if the $6,000 to $8,000 fees are correct?

      You missed my other question, or decided not to answer it.

      Do you, as Debt Free Payment Systems, charge the client a fee for managing their account on behalf of No More Mortgage?

      It’s wonderful to keep blowing happy smoke in the comments here but honestly, your inability to answer some critical and specific questions leaves you with zero credibility and makes the company look bad.

      I’m sure if anyone is reading this by now they are thinking “what are those people trying to hide” and how can they have intimate knowledge of all this happy stuff but no clue on what the fees for the program are.

      Here is my guess, the toolkit is given away as part of the marketing approach but the ultimate package is sold with six thousand or more in front-loaded fees.


  • Carl Starrett

    Steve, you can find complaints all over the Internet about this company, but the general sense that I get is that this company doesn’t offer anything special that homeowners couldn’t do on their own. They appear to offer a “toolkit” for $369 (based on comments made by company employees in 2008), but very little specifics on how the program works.

    So far, I haven’t heard any compelling reason for a consumer to part with their hard earned money for this product. If someone wants to pay off their debt early and not file bankruptcy, they can do this with basic budgeting and making extra payments on their existing debts and you have already suggested.
    .-= Carl Starrett´s last blog ..Phone Numbers Used By Phony Debt Collectors =-.

  • Kirk K

    I’m happy to tell you what I do know. The payment admin is Debt Free Payment Systems who direct and manage the payments according to the analysis created for the client. They use Metavante to make the actual payment transactions.
    Yes there is a small monthly fee to the payment administrator that is debited once a month.

    I did mention above that I contract with Financial Ins. I’m not involved in pricing and can’t comment on it as I don’t keep up on NMM’s pricing or changes and could very well misrepresent it. I work remotely so I’m not in physical contact either.

    I suggested in the first post that you consider contacting NMM themselves so you could get information on the program directly from them. As well as their terms and conditions. They would be able to expound further on their services and what they provide which I’m not able to do. I don’t want to misrepresent them.

    They may also be providing additional services to the program I have worked on which I’m not in the loop on. I don’t want them judged on what could be incomplete information on my part.

    • Steve Rhode


      At least you were able to help me out with Debt Free Payment Systems information. Debt Free Payment Systems appears to have little web presence to build trust. All the core pages on their site just redirect to their homepage. And Kirk, Debt Free payment Systems is you!

      Financial Insights
      5570 South 250 West
      Ogden, Utah 84405

      Do you charge the client a fee for managing their account on behalf of No More Mortgage?

      Certainly you must have a contact at work, even if you work remotely, that you can say “Hey, what are our fees?”

      If you can spend so much time writing responses, why can’t you spend a few minutes just answering my direct questions?

      Let me tell you what I found after your lack of response sent me hunting for an answer. My research online seems to indicate the “full program package” costs between $6,500 to $8,000. Click here, click here.

      By the way, have you read the posting by a contract programmer for this company that claims he was defrauded and not paid for his services? Might be worth a read.


  • Kirk K

    The payment admin electronically debits from the client’s currently held checking account through a payment transfer company that handles funds transfers and wires for most of the larger banks in the US. They transfer client bill payments totaling over $2 million per month for the Payment Administrator.

    The clients either grant access to their primary checking account to the payment admin or choose to open another checking account at their bank and transfer money over to it for the payment admin to handle the debt payments with. Most clients choose to have the drafting done twice a month so it fits in with their pay checks and cash flow. The payment admin is initiating an electronic bill payment on behalf of the client. So the creditor gets paid by the client. The payment admin doesn’t take their money and hold it like some programs do such as debt settlement.

    I have worked on other aspects of the back end but not in the Payment Admin side myself. They’ve explained how it works to me and answer any questions I have as needed.

    Again, I’m not an employee for NMM and wanted to put out my view of an option that is currently helping many to achieve savings they were not able to obtain on their own. I did a brief stint in the mortgage industry and left it because I couldn’t find a real solution for people in trouble which led me to this program.

    I don’t know what their current pricing is. I’ve been involved in different aspects of the back end. What I saw in the past as a fee was a very small percentage of the overall savings. And they include financial counseling and give away a toolkit to clients that people have paid over $300 for.

    I can understand where you’re coming from and you should be critical of programs that could put someone in the position to be taken advantage of. I’ve seen that with other programs involving credit lines or MLM companies. NMM is not that type of company.

    • Steve Rhode


      So is the ‘payment administrator’ a third party like Metavante or Rocky Mountain or is it No More Mortgage or your company? If so, is the client paying them a separate fee to the payment administrator?

      Now on the fees, you evaded the question so adeptly but say, “So I know and understand the program very well.” You also say you have a direct or a contract relationship with No More Mortgage or Financial Ins. Surely you can ask one of your co-workers or contacts for specific information on what the fee is. Dodging the question only makes all you say seem, uh, unreliable.

      While you are at it, how about pasting the client terms and conditions here so we can see them. Certainly, nothing to hide, right?

      Transparency only builds you credibility. Obfuscation builds doubt.


  • Kirk K

    Hi Steve.

    I am not an employee of NMM. I do contract work with Financial Ins. So I know and understand the program very well. I linked in NMM’s website so people could read some of their info if they are interested.

    The program does debit the client’s account to make the payments for them according to the program. And their service fee is debited as well so it is not pulled on a credit card, but through the checking account. I thought the use of a payment administrator was clear above when i referenced it. My apologies. The payment admin triggers the payment from the client’s account to the creditor according to the program so that they ensure the payments are in accordance with the plan. this way the payment goes from the client to the creditor.

    The right amount goes out at the right time and the targeted debts are accelerated until paid off in the order the system has created in the plan. That way they ensure the client stays on track with the plan by doing the work for them. So for the client the plan is on autopilot.

    Like many executives do for others, Todd is or has sat on the board for multiple companies. Those companies above are not associated with one another and are all under different ownership as far as I know. I’m not familiar with one of them at all but I am familiar with the others.

    I don’t know what NMM’s pricing structure is exactly. I know that if you choose the high side of what I believe it is a client would be paying a very small percentage of their overall savings to ensure that the savings would happen.

    For the client that can’t or won’t succeed in eliminating their debt themselves a program that does the work for them could be the difference between them paying out to their creditors or saving tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars.

    Also, once they complete a program like that they have gotten used to living on a certain budget and it is much easier for them to contribute more heavily to their retirement, which may need to be propped up.

    I see many people online or in the media always telling everyone to “just do it themselves”. For those who can and will do what needs to be done every month for the years it will take to eliminate their debt, the advice they get and the encouragement is great. For those who need a tool to ensure they don’t fail, there are programs like NMM to make sure they gain the savings they deserve too.

    Like I mentioned previously, there have been “do it yourself” resources, books, and kits for well over a decade and yet personal debt is still a huge problem, if not worse than it was 10 years ago. Apparently many people are not able to control this on their own and can use a program that does the work for them.

    Unfortunately, many people get turned off by what they read or hear from others and never go on to get the help they need, costing them a good portion of the retirement income they could have built up if their finances were under control.

    I appreciate the information and advice you offer here at your site. I left my previous post to point out that there are alternatives for the people who are not getting ahead of their debt and need help. Thank you for the opportunity to voice my opinion on your site.

    • Steve Rhode


      I can’t understand how you would debit the clients account and send it to the creditor without controlling it at some point. Can you please help me to understand exactly how this works. Does the program admin have access into the clients checking account they held before enrolling in the program or is a new account opened for payments under the plan?

      I get all the praise but seriously, answering clearly and specifically what the fees are should be easy to do if you “understand the program very well.”


  • Kirk K

    Dear Steve,
    Since you’re that not familiar with No More Mortgage and I’m very familiar with their program I’d like to clarify a few items to help people understand how the it works.

    The program is a great solution for people that have not been able to get ahead of their debt on their own or have been carrying their debt month after month after month…

    Several years of experience have shown that many, if not most, people are not able to eliminate their debt on their own despite the fact that there have been “do it yourself” programs available for over a decade. Yet debt is rampant and people are looking for a solution that doesn’t damage their credit and achieves real savings allowing them to contribute more and sooner to their retirement after getting out of debt.

    No, their monthly payments do not go down. It will usually be close to or slightly more than they pay out now. It is a fully administered debt roll down program and you have to pay out at least a little more than the minimum due to get started. The payment administrator ensures the payments go out at the right time and in the right amount to achieve the savings following the analysis the client receives for free before deciding on whether they want to enter the program.

    The money is not held as other services will do and the drafting of the payments is on a set schedule that is decided on and agreed to between the payment administrator and the client so that it fits in with their budget and income timing. They are not a consolidator.

    The payment administration is a key to the program. It’s not enough to provide someone with a plan they can follow and then expect them to follow it. I’ve spoken to financial planners that have told me their clients follow their advice for around 3 months and fall off the cliff. Most people won’t follow a plan month in and month out for the several years it will take to eliminate their debt. So they elect to pay a service fee to have it done for them to ensure their success. It ends up being a very small percentage of their savings and is well worth it as thousands of clients have chosen to do this over the last decade plus. most homeowners save at least 80-100K and many save much more. I believe that No More Mortgage is also providing their clients with free debt counseling and a financial toolkit.

    You have an outstanding site and boatloads of great information here. It would be close to impossible to keep up with every program out there and every company with a potential solution, so I wanted to clarify things a little. If you are interested in talking to them to verify anything here, you might as well call Larry Ruff himself. I’ve spoken to him in the past and would recommend their company and service.

    Keep up the great work.

    • Steve Rhode

      Thanks for the comment. Since you are very familiar with the program can you tell me the costs associated with the program? Also, are you saying they do not debit your account for payment?

      I just noticed from the link you posted with your comment and see you are associated with No More Mortgage. I don’t know if it is just your style of writing but your answer makes people believe you are not associated with No More Mortgage when you write about ‘they’ and ‘their’.

      After a bit more research all I’ve got to say is “Dude, you’ve got to be kidding me.” I’d say you are connected to No More Mortgage.

      Your email address traces back to Financial insights in Ogden, Utah. Your site at states your president P. Todd Moyiner is part of No More Mortgage. “Todd Currently sits on the board of directors for Several financial service companies such as NO MORE Mortgage, Total Debt Solutions, EPIC Financial, and is a trusted advisor to others such as Impact Networth.”

      Please give me the website for Impact Networth.


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